Comments on: no milk? http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/ My journey through motherhood being a black sheep in the parenting world... Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:00:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: paxye http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-255 paxye Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:43:50 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-255 Toraji... exactly... I have no problem and even more then that... my heart goes out to people that try to breastfeed, work at it, want it, and can't... it does happen and it is must be heartbreaking especially whe you know and believe that breastmilk is the best food and that there can be serious risks to formula... Who would want to give their child something that is dangerous? It is for this reason that I see Formula as being equal to a medication... sometimes you need it and there are times when you have to take the risks... Like medication, you need to be aware of the risks, you should be followed by a medical professional and it should be by prescription only... I really like the WHO's take on it... For one... they recomend breastfeeding as the optimum, expressed milk from own mother as second choice, breastmilk from another mother as 3rd choice, a subsitute fed by cup in fourth choice and last a bottle of formula... They also state "Infants who are not breastfed, for whatever reason, should receive special attention from the health and social welfare system since they constitute a risk group." http://www.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA55/ea5515.pdf Toraji… exactly… I have no problem and even more then that… my heart goes out to people that try to breastfeed, work at it, want it, and can’t… it does happen and it is must be heartbreaking especially whe you know and believe that breastmilk is the best food and that there can be serious risks to formula… Who would want to give their child something that is dangerous? It is for this reason that I see Formula as being equal to a medication… sometimes you need it and there are times when you have to take the risks…
Like medication, you need to be aware of the risks, you should be followed by a medical professional and it should be by prescription only…

I really like the WHO’s take on it…
For one… they recomend breastfeeding as the optimum, expressed milk from own mother as second choice, breastmilk from another mother as 3rd choice, a subsitute fed by cup in fourth choice and last a bottle of formula…
They also state “Infants who are not breastfed, for whatever reason, should receive special attention from the health and social welfare system since
they constitute a risk group.”
http://www.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA55/ea5515.pdf

]]> By: toraji http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-254 toraji Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:17:01 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-254 Quote: What I disagree the most about with Birdie is that is that when she switched to formula she just has a habit of preaching that “sometimes Breast isn’t Best”…. and has said that it was her breastmilk that caused the problems… Ohh! Got it. I totally agree. Breast is always best no matter what. Sometimes there are problems that make it difficult, whether it is totally physical or just a lack of information. And if those problems make it impossible to breastfeed (like if you had breast surgery) then you can still agree that breastmilk is the ideal route even if you formula feed. At least, that is my take on it. I am learning to leave my guilt behind, though some days it is very difficult! Quote: What I disagree the most about with Birdie is that is that when she switched to formula she just has a habit of preaching that “sometimes Breast isn’t Best”…. and has said that it was her breastmilk that caused the problems…

Ohh! Got it. I totally agree. Breast is always best no matter what. Sometimes there are problems that make it difficult, whether it is totally physical or just a lack of information. And if those problems make it impossible to breastfeed (like if you had breast surgery) then you can still agree that breastmilk is the ideal route even if you formula feed. At least, that is my take on it.

I am learning to leave my guilt behind, though some days it is very difficult!

]]> By: paxye http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-253 paxye Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:25:12 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-253 Marta... I think the weight gain can have all different kinds of reasons... could be diet, metabolism, how much a baby is sleeping etc... It is just like Some people will eat the same thing as another person and one will gain and the other may lose... toraji... Like I said to Birdie... I see problems such as yours and hers as lying within the parents diet and not the milk itself... (you change the diet and the milk will change also.... though I am not saying that it is easy!!!) What I disagree the most about with Birdie is that is that when she switched to formula she just has a habit of preaching that "sometimes Breast isn't Best".... and has said that it was her breastmilk that caused the problems... these comments have left me with a sour taste in my mouth... It makes me so sad hearing stories like yours.... and I understand that you are still going through a lot of guilt... As parents we want to do what is best for our children... and choosing a vegan whole food diet is what many people regard as what is best... but you found the problem and made the change.... I hope you use your experience as a way to educate others (MDC is down so I can't see the discussions) I know that I will keep it in mind also... and I will ask more about mom's diet... I do encounter many people that do have a LOT of problems... most of it is due to misinformation and lack of supprt and to solve the problems thay have to let go of the bad info they got in the past... this often has to come down to choosing the "guilt" route by saying I thought I was doing what was best and now I know that I was not the right desision... but then you have to learn to leave that guilt behind... Marta… I think the weight gain can have all different kinds of reasons… could be diet, metabolism, how much a baby is sleeping etc…
It is just like Some people will eat the same thing as another person and one will gain and the other may lose…

toraji…
Like I said to Birdie… I see problems such as yours and hers as lying within the parents diet and not the milk itself… (you change the diet and the milk will change also…. though I am not saying that it is easy!!!)
What I disagree the most about with Birdie is that is that when she switched to formula she just has a habit of preaching that “sometimes Breast isn’t Best”…. and has said that it was her breastmilk that caused the problems…
these comments have left me with a sour taste in my mouth…

It makes me so sad hearing stories like yours…. and I understand that you are still going through a lot of guilt… As parents we want to do what is best for our children… and choosing a vegan whole food diet is what many people regard as what is best… but you found the problem and made the change….
I hope you use your experience as a way to educate others (MDC is down so I can’t see the discussions)

I know that I will keep it in mind also… and I will ask more about mom’s diet…

I do encounter many people that do have a LOT of problems… most of it is due to misinformation and lack of supprt and to solve the problems thay have to let go of the bad info they got in the past… this often has to come down to choosing the “guilt” route by saying I thought I was doing what was best and now I know that I was not the right desision…
but then you have to learn to leave that guilt behind…

]]> By: toraji http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-252 toraji Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:35:00 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-252 Ok, I first want to state that I firmly believe breast is best. I Love Love Love La Leche League and other pro-breastfeeding organizations and what they do to promote breastfeeding. I think it is a shame that more women don't breastfeed, and that so much misinformation and unnecessary interventions prevent them from doing so. Breastfeeding is natural and necessary to a happy and healthy child (and mother!). I also do not agree with women who never want to start, or want to stop breasfeeding because it is simply too much of a bother even if they are able to do so with little or no problems. So this is not what my post is about. I did want to address what Birdie was talking about though. IME there can be problems with breastfeeding despite mama's best efforts. For the first year of DD's life and during pregnancy, I was an extremely strict whole foods vegan. She started developing major tooth decay even while she was pretty much strictly breastfed (she would only lick food and then promptly spit it out, so I didn't really consider her eating anything solid yet). This prompted us to change our family's diet, and after we switched, she started growing. A lot. And started acting more mentally chipper. It was noticeable to the degree that I could not just think it was a growth spurt or developmental milestone. And then the tooth decay stopped spreading and growing larger, whereas it was rapidly spreading pre-diet change. The only thing that changed was my diet, and thus my milk. Even though I was nursing on demand, and nursing well making plenty of milk, I was starving my little girl. I have so much more to say on this subject, but I want to respect that this is Paxye's space to rant. Instead I will link to my posts on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=414949 and an exhaustive (and exhausting) discussion about breastmilk and diet off MDC: http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=343188 . As you can tell, this is a subject very close to my heart. My DD also has severe food allergies (we carry an Epi-Pen) and we battled eczema for a few months early on due to allergens coming through my milk. I am currently trying to heal my and DD's guts to stop us being so allergic to things and it's a slow process. Yeast problems supposedly have a lot to do with diet and are correlated with gut health as well. I think if we can educate ourselves and do our best to support nursing mamas in their nutritional as well as physical needs, then we may be able to help some of the mamas with problems early on to continue breastfeeding successfully. Ok, I first want to state that I firmly believe breast is best. I Love Love Love La Leche League and other pro-breastfeeding organizations and what they do to promote breastfeeding. I think it is a shame that more women don’t breastfeed, and that so much misinformation and unnecessary interventions prevent them from doing so. Breastfeeding is natural and necessary to a happy and healthy child (and mother!).

I also do not agree with women who never want to start, or want to stop breasfeeding because it is simply too much of a bother even if they are able to do so with little or no problems. So this is not what my post is about.

I did want to address what Birdie was talking about though. IME there can be problems with breastfeeding despite mama’s best efforts. For the first year of DD’s life and during pregnancy, I was an extremely strict whole foods vegan. She started developing major tooth decay even while she was pretty much strictly breastfed (she would only lick food and then promptly spit it out, so I didn’t really consider her eating anything solid yet). This prompted us to change our family’s diet, and after we switched, she started growing. A lot. And started acting more mentally chipper. It was noticeable to the degree that I could not just think it was a growth spurt or developmental milestone. And then the tooth decay stopped spreading and growing larger, whereas it was rapidly spreading pre-diet change. The only thing that changed was my diet, and thus my milk. Even though I was nursing on demand, and nursing well making plenty of milk, I was starving my little girl.

I have so much more to say on this subject, but I want to respect that this is Paxye’s space to rant. Instead I will link to my posts on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=414949 and an exhaustive (and exhausting) discussion about breastmilk and diet off MDC: http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=343188 .

As you can tell, this is a subject very close to my heart. My DD also has severe food allergies (we carry an Epi-Pen) and we battled eczema for a few months early on due to allergens coming through my milk. I am currently trying to heal my and DD’s guts to stop us being so allergic to things and it’s a slow process. Yeast problems supposedly have a lot to do with diet and are correlated with gut health as well. I think if we can educate ourselves and do our best to support nursing mamas in their nutritional as well as physical needs, then we may be able to help some of the mamas with problems early on to continue breastfeeding successfully.

]]> By: marta http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-251 marta Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:55:13 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-251 About brestfeeding I don't know if I am special but all my friends brestfed their babies wonderfully, me also. Still I have a question about the reasons for the difference in gain weight from baby to baby and Mother to Monther, like for instance some babies gain in the first months an average of 200 g per week while others gain 400g, is it the milk more or less fat, is it the baby, or the food the mother takes, or the production. I wander... :o) About brestfeeding I don’t know if I am special but all my friends brestfed their babies wonderfully, me also. Still I have a question about the reasons for the difference in gain weight from baby to baby and Mother to Monther, like for instance some babies gain in the first months an average of 200 g per week while others gain 400g, is it the milk more or less fat, is it the baby, or the food the mother takes, or the production. I wander… :o)

]]> By: msaraann http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-250 msaraann Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:53:00 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-250 On the topic of breastfeeding babies with allergies and failure to thrive: Both my daughters have tons of allergies. I have tons of allergies. I've done elimination diets. My first daughter was big and appeared healthy even though she had tons of allergy troubles, but my second daughter was small and gained very slowly. I think she would have been diagnosed failure to thrive if I had taken her to wellness visits. At nearly one year old, however, we've eliminated foods and she's a petite, but chubby, healthy baby. I don't know why a mother would be suggested to stop breastfeeding because of allergies, especially since cow's milk and soy are two of the top most allergic foods. I understand the fear of slow gaining ("failure to thrive"), but why stop breastfeeding completely? Is it because the person recommending doesn't believe the mother will eliminate trouble foods from her diet or that it would be too much of a bother? I had cracked nipples, thrush, blisters, latch problems, and clogged ducts almost constantly for the first seven months of my first daughter's life, but because of my babies' allergies, it was especially important to me to keep breastfeeding them. Additionally, their father has Type I diabetes which is associated with formula feeding. He was not breastfed. My girls may be genetically predisposed. Diabetes along with the host of other diseases associated with formula feeding are not worth risking. Breastmilk protects my babies from diseases. It's a gift easily within my ability to give them. On the topic of breastfeeding babies with allergies and failure to thrive: Both my daughters have tons of allergies. I have tons of allergies. I’ve done elimination diets. My first daughter was big and appeared healthy even though she had tons of allergy troubles, but my second daughter was small and gained very slowly. I think she would have been diagnosed failure to thrive if I had taken her to wellness visits. At nearly one year old, however, we’ve eliminated foods and she’s a petite, but chubby, healthy baby.

I don’t know why a mother would be suggested to stop breastfeeding because of allergies, especially since cow’s milk and soy are two of the top most allergic foods. I understand the fear of slow gaining (”failure to thrive”), but why stop breastfeeding completely? Is it because the person recommending doesn’t believe the mother will eliminate trouble foods from her diet or that it would be too much of a bother?

I had cracked nipples, thrush, blisters, latch problems, and clogged ducts almost constantly for the first seven months of my first daughter’s life, but because of my babies’ allergies, it was especially important to me to keep breastfeeding them. Additionally, their father has Type I diabetes which is associated with formula feeding. He was not breastfed. My girls may be genetically predisposed. Diabetes along with the host of other diseases associated with formula feeding are not worth risking. Breastmilk protects my babies from diseases. It’s a gift easily within my ability to give them.

]]> By: paxye http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-249 paxye Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:18:20 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-249 btw Bethany... I was wondering what you thought about what I said about time-outs... since you had asked me to talk about it before.... btw Bethany… I was wondering what you thought about what I said about time-outs… since you had asked me to talk about it before….

]]> By: paxye http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-248 paxye Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:16:31 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-248 I don't remember exactly what I remember reading about when you did your elimination diet that I didn't agree with... there were a lot of posts about it.... but please feel free to e-mail me and I will go through it with you.... However, you are learning more and more how to cook for your dd and wth that diet for yourself you shouldn't have any problems milk wise... (babies can not be allergic to breastmilk) Yes... I have very strong views on breastfeeding... Breast is best and other milk should only be used when absolutely needed. Formula can have side effects and the lack of breastmilk for a baby can lead to substantial health problems and even death. It shouldn't be a choice to breastfeed or not. I truly believe that Formula should be used by prescription only and only when all recourses to breastfeed (with the right info of course) have expired. Even the I would rather see Breastmilk banks then formula companies. At the moment there are women that really can't beastfeed for many reasons and there are not enough breastmilk banks, they are expensive, and there are still cultural barriers around them and that is the reason that Formula is here... Is is the lesser of two evils and it should be treated as such.... Babies need to eat and there are circumstances that breastfeeding is not possible and breastmilk from another source is not availible... I can accept that... but not accept when people choose to breastfeed because they think that it is an equal or good enough choice... it isn't... As for the question about transitional objects... I wrote this a few months ago... <a href="http://paxye.com/blog/?p=93" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Transitional Objects…" rel="nofollow">Transitional Objects…</a> I don’t remember exactly what I remember reading about when you did your elimination diet that I didn’t agree with… there were a lot of posts about it…. but please feel free to e-mail me and I will go through it with you…. However, you are learning more and more how to cook for your dd and wth that diet for yourself you shouldn’t have any problems milk wise… (babies can not be allergic to breastmilk)

Yes… I have very strong views on breastfeeding… Breast is best and other milk should only be used when absolutely needed. Formula can have side effects and the lack of breastmilk for a baby can lead to substantial health problems and even death. It shouldn’t be a choice to breastfeed or not.
I truly believe that Formula should be used by prescription only and only when all recourses to breastfeed (with the right info of course) have expired. Even the I would rather see Breastmilk banks then formula companies.
At the moment there are women that really can’t beastfeed for many reasons and there are not enough breastmilk banks, they are expensive, and there are still cultural barriers around them and that is the reason that Formula is here…
Is is the lesser of two evils and it should be treated as such…. Babies need to eat and there are circumstances that breastfeeding is not possible and breastmilk from another source is not availible… I can accept that… but not accept when people choose to breastfeed because they think that it is an equal or good enough choice… it isn’t…

As for the question about transitional objects…
I wrote this a few months ago…
Transitional Objects…

]]> By: birdie http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-247 birdie Thu, 23 Feb 2006 23:06:16 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-247 No, my daughter was not supplemented at the hospital, and yes, she was exclusively breastfed until I had to quit. It took me about a month before she would ever let a bottle nipple in her mouth (when she was 6 months old mind you.) I would be intrigued to hear what I did wrong in my elimination diet. I plan on breastfeeding with future children AND doing a total elimination diet in an effort to help prevent allergies (which run in the family BTW). So I am open to any suggestions that can help me not go through that again! In a side note, I do want to emphasize again, that I have been coming to your blog for a long time, because I am intrigued by your parenting style - same reason I follow a vegan blog even though I'm not vegan! You have a lot of great things to say and obviously the one thing that I struggle with is your black/white views of breastfeeding. In another random question - maybe you can save it for another post - how common is it for a child who is raised AP to have a comfort object like a blankie or a stuffed animal? Thanks No, my daughter was not supplemented at the hospital, and yes, she was exclusively breastfed until I had to quit. It took me about a month before she would ever let a bottle nipple in her mouth (when she was 6 months old mind you.) I would be intrigued to hear what I did wrong in my elimination diet. I plan on breastfeeding with future children AND doing a total elimination diet in an effort to help prevent allergies (which run in the family BTW). So I am open to any suggestions that can help me not go through that again!

In a side note, I do want to emphasize again, that I have been coming to your blog for a long time, because I am intrigued by your parenting style - same reason I follow a vegan blog even though I’m not vegan! You have a lot of great things to say and obviously the one thing that I struggle with is your black/white views of breastfeeding.

In another random question - maybe you can save it for another post - how common is it for a child who is raised AP to have a comfort object like a blankie or a stuffed animal?

Thanks

]]> By: paxye http://paxye.com/blog/no-milk/#comment-246 paxye Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:16:21 +0000 http://paxye.com/blog/?p=193#comment-246 bethany... Your daughter hd failure to thrive because of very serious allergies.... I followed to whole thing the whole time and I followed the way you did your elimination diet (not the way that is recommended btw)..... you always come back by saying how "sometimes breast is not best".... I think it is sad that she has such serious allergies but at least she got the colustrum and the first months of breastmilk (not excusive though right? as I remember) I couldn't imagine how worse off she would have been by getting formula from the begining that would have left her gut wide open.... and she would have been exposed to the proteins fully.... Can I ask... did she get any supplementation at all during the first few days of life? Also... (hope you don't mind Sara;) ) Sara (msaraann) has a dd that has serious allergies... I would have to say that she probably has the same amount of allergies as your dd.... however, she has succesfully breastfed and eliminated things from her diet.... Breast is still best... it is the food that we eat that can be dangerous.... not the breastmilk! As for infant deaths 100 years ago.... what the stats show is that most deaths 100 years ago were due to circumstances that have been prevented with cleaner living circumstances, better education, smaller families, better medicine etc.... However, What the decline of breastfeeding has brought is a whole new wave of infant deaths from diseases that would be less prominant if more people breastfeed and actually were almost not heard of 100 years ago... a great study shows that 50% of infant deaths in the US could be prevented if kids were breastfeed excusively for the first 6 months.... bethany… Your daughter hd failure to thrive because of very serious allergies…. I followed to whole thing the whole time and I followed the way you did your elimination diet (not the way that is recommended btw)….. you always come back by saying how “sometimes breast is not best”….
I think it is sad that she has such serious allergies but at least she got the colustrum and the first months of breastmilk (not excusive though right? as I remember) I couldn’t imagine how worse off she would have been by getting formula from the begining that would have left her gut wide open…. and she would have been exposed to the proteins fully….
Can I ask… did she get any supplementation at all during the first few days of life?
Also… (hope you don’t mind Sara;) )
Sara (msaraann) has a dd that has serious allergies… I would have to say that she probably has the same amount of allergies as your dd…. however, she has succesfully breastfed and eliminated things from her diet…. Breast is still best… it is the food that we eat that can be dangerous…. not the breastmilk!

As for infant deaths 100 years ago…. what the stats show is that most deaths 100 years ago were due to circumstances that have been prevented with cleaner living circumstances, better education, smaller families, better medicine etc….
However, What the decline of breastfeeding has brought is a whole new wave of infant deaths from diseases that would be less prominant if more people breastfeed and actually were almost not heard of 100 years ago… a great study shows that 50% of infant deaths in the US could be prevented if kids were breastfeed excusively for the first 6 months….

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